Concerning Problems Within AA

Author: Mark Dombeck, Ph.D. Source: CenterSite.net

Some good advice included in this article. Hence we quote at some length:

“It's time for a follow-up on my AA is a Cult? Essay of about a year ago. Two reasons for this. First, Newsweek recently published a three page article profiling an AA group in the Washington DC area [Midtown] which has been accused of cult-like and abusive behavior. And of course, as AA is by design an open organization at the ground level, there are not really mechanisms in place to keep predatory sorts of folks from joining and then manipulating the organization. Some words on how to identify and avoid predatory behaviors and characteristics are perhaps in order. Second, because the comments on my original AA article keep on coming, and there are distinct patterns emerging therein which are worth commenting on.

The Newsweek article first. The article concerns meetings held at Midtown, which is represented as one of the oldest and largest meetings in the DC area. According to Newsweek, Midtown members pressured a recent attendee, a young woman named "May", to cut off ties with anyone outside the group, to stop taking doctor-prescribed medications for her bipolar disorder, and to date and become sexually involved with other group members. Apparently, newer group members were also pressured to do chores for more established group members, as though they were pledging for a fraternity. There are other accusations as well, but these listed here capture the tone of the complaints.

Some of these behaviors, such as encouraging members to go off prescribed medications, become sexually involved with other members, and do chores for other members seem simply abusive, controlling and arrogant. They are against established AA guidelines as I understand them. Other behaviors such as the group's efforts to socially isolate members may have started out with good intentions. Some social control can be a good thing when dealing with addictions. Addicts build up habit chains, which are series of linked behaviors that lead them down a path towards becoming intoxicated. For instance, seeing a friend with whom you used to drink can set off a chain of behaviors which culminates in you drinking again. The best way to cope with these sorts of habit chains is to avoid getting them triggered. It makes sense, therefore, for newly recovering alcoholics to avoid the people, places and things associated with their drinking habits which get the habit chains started. It similarly makes sense for an organization designed to promote sobriety to encourage newly sober members to avoid those triggering people, places and things as well. There is a line that can be crossed into abuse here as well. You can certainly attempt to control people too much. However, the bar is higher for calling this sort of social control abusive than for some of the other behaviors Midtown is accused of perpetrating.

A little more on the social control complaint. A frequent criticism of AA groups is that members are not allowed to grow out of AA. In the case of the Midtown group, a member alleges that when she tried to leave her sponsor told her that she would die without the group to support her. There may be some merit to this behavior too, despite its seemingly sinister bent. Alcoholics are typically psychologically vulnerable in early recovery. Their minds and behaviors have been compromised by those addictive habit chains I spoke of earlier. Their judgment is typically crappy by which I mean that they may believe that they can go out with their old drinking friends, go to the bar, etc. and not end up drinking. It is as though they believe they are immune to their entrenched habits if they want to be. People who are more experienced with overcoming negative habits know better and do what they can to avoid triggering their habits in the first place. Understood in this light, a sponsor getting angry with a sponsee who wants to leave what seems to be shelter for a return to old habits makes sense. It is a helpless feeling watching someone who seems determined to hurt themselves and will not listen to warnings.

To take the other side of this argument for a moment, I have long been troubled by the idea that AA doesn't seem to provide a clear path for maturing out of the group for those people who over time cease to require it anymore. Or if there is such a path, it is not widely discussed. I have seen people whose entire social lives revolve around AA decades after their initial involvement and last drink and I have to wonder (from my non-addicted point of view) if that is necessary or entirely healthy. I don't question that there are people out there who will continue to need the constant support of AA for the rest of their lives. I don't question that people who have become addicted will remain vulnerable for the rest of their lives. I also don't question that it is a good idea for addicted people to remain sober for the rest of their lives. Better safe than sorry is a good policy. However, I also know that there is a larger world than AA out there, and it seems like it would be a good idea for experienced and long-time-sober AA members to expand their social horizons outside AA, even as it is also a good idea to keep their connection to AA alive.

I've said this before and it bears repeating. AA is not necessarily the best available treatment for alcoholism, and it is certainly not the only one. I'm partial to the scientifically derived treatments myself. Relapse prevention and motivational interviewing approaches are what I'm most comfortable promoting. However, these sorts of interventions are administered by professionals and cost a lot of money to obtain. They cannot be frequently administered to large amounts of people, or at least people cannot typically afford them in any frequent format. Also these scientifically derived interventions don't do a very good job of providing available sober social support; a sort of support that is absolutely critical for early recovery to progress in most cases. AA provides frequently available social support and promotes sobriety every night and every morning and in many places at lunchtime too. AA is free. AA helps people who are open to its message. AA makes an excellent adjunctive treatment for those who can afford to take advantage of the scientifically derived therapies. It is what is available to those who cannot afford those therapies.

There is a baby in with the bathwater, is what I've been saying, and what many people who have commented on the AA essays have been saying too. There are really some treasures within AA if you can get to them. In order to get to them you have to find a good AA group in the first place (which is not guaranteed to be available to you, apparently (but what in life is?), and you also have to be open to the idea that your judgment is faulty; that you need to submit yourself to a "higher" judgment; the judgment of people who have struggled with alcoholism and learned how to live sober.

The thing is, even though an alcoholics' judgment is generally crappy, they still need to keep their wits about them. They still need to be making judgments about the motives of the people in the AA group they're attached to. They need to be satisfying themselves that they are in a group of people who are not trying to take advantage of them but rather who are trying to do something altruistic (and self-preservative too). Both con artist and saint will need to be giving explicit and somewhat controlling directions to the newly recovering alcoholic, and because it is hard to take directions; because there is generally so much pride at stake, these two efforts to control may appear to be indistinguishable. Nevertheless, it is important for the newly recovering alcoholic to be able to reject the one and embrace the other. This is one of the harder things to do in AA, I suspect.

For what they are worth, here are some pointers for what to avoid in a support group and in AA. Stay away from groups that encourage you to:

• Avoid your friends and family (unless there is a clear and logical rational for why you should avoid your friends and family (e.g., there is concrete evidence that they will undermine your sobriety or mental health). When this is the case (and it really is the case sometimes), it is reasonable that the avoidance should be temporary rather than permanent and something that can be attempted again in the future if that becomes a reasonable thing to do.
• Discourage engaging in leisure or daily activities that don't involve group members. It's okay if alcoholic or drug-involved activities are discouraged, but that is where the line should be drawn.
• Discourage using other forms of treatment besides the group. Any group member that tells you to not take prescribed medication should not be listened to. Any group member who tells you to not attend psychotherapy should not be listened to.
• Rely on group decision making processes for making your important decisions. There will be times when it will be wisest to delegate decisions to others (e.g., when you are intoxicated, when you are in very early recovery and you can't seem to keep yourself sober), but such delegation should always be done on a temporary basis, and it should be limited in scope. Allow the group to help you troubleshoot difficult situations (e.g., what do I do when I go to the office party and everyone else is drinking!). Allow a more experienced person to help you find a sponsor. Do not allow a more experienced person to tell you to stay with a sponsor you know to be abusive. Do not give your life savings to a support group. Do not let the group dictate who you must date or become sexual with, etc. On the other hand, it is a good idea to follow the general AA rule to not date during the first year of sobriety. It can be tricky figuring this out.
• Take up an us/them mentality. Your membership in the support group should not become your only and sole identity, or if it must (because otherwise you know you will drink), then let that be only on a temporary basis, until you've built up the coping skills necessary to have outside relationships. In other words, support and understanding within the group is good. Suggesting that no one else outside the group will ever understand or care about you is not........

"Caveat Emptor" is the old Latin phrase we're all familiar with meaning, "Let the buyer beware". AA is a positive force for sobriety around the world, but it is not without its problems. People seeking to become sober should avail themselves of a range of treatment options including rehabs, relapse prevention and motivational interviewing approaches and related therapies as well as AA to the extent that these can be afforded and accessed. AA should be used for the good it can provide. There is much wisdom therein. At the same time, people should not abandon their street smarts upon entering AA. They should be careful to avoid the more abusively controlling and immature sorts of members and rather associate themselves with those other members who are working towards a more straightforward and sincere recovery. Not an easy task, I know. One that becomes harder if you allow yourself to become isolated and unable to check in with other people about the validity of your perception. So, to the extent that you can avoid it, don't allow that to happen. Listen to your gut and check your perceptions with others who care about you. Do what you can do to not be taken advantage of. At the same time, don't be so paranoid that you fail to take advantage of what help is available.”

(our emphases)

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments. We quote:

“Limitations of research. - - Jul 1st 2009

According to the Wikipedia entry on AA:

"The study of AA tends to polarize observers into believers and non-believers, and discussion of AA often creates controversy rather than objective reflection."

AA never claimed exclusivity, and acknowledges other as possible and preferrable for some. Moreover, since it's impossible to be kicked out of AA for incorrect thinking, a lot gets said at AA meetings, as well as the opposite, and they are all allowed. Most meetings have a no crosstalk policy, which means that interrupting, criticising or making comments at meeting level directed to another person are against group conscience.

As for the studies, they are confimation that there is more than one way to become sober and that AA is not for everyone. But because, according to Wikipedia, "A randomized trial of AA is very difficult because members are self-selected, not randomly selected from the population of chronic alcoholics, with the possible exception of those who participate in AA to comply with a court mandate." Consequently, the studies done will never settle the arguments pro or con. As for those forced to attend, some groups will not sign attendance slips. They are also unlikely to do well since they are often attending not out of choice. AA does not evangelize, a practice that nonetheless occurs. But because except for being a threat to the safety of a group, you can pretty well do or say anything, even when it very frowned upon. AA may be the most effective and lasting anarchy extant.”

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

PS To use “comment” system simply click on “Comments” tab below this article and sign in. All comments go through a moderation stage

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments. We quote:

“An outsider looking in - david - Jul 1st 2009

A response to: a solution (from June 29): AA is careful to avoids claims of exclusivity by saying that it offers a solution and not "the" solution. The AA Big Book is careful to emphasize this important point: however, in the smaller meetings between a few people, in sponsor to sponsee conversations, in the gatherings at Starbucks or Panera after a meeting, and over the phone in private conversations, the principle is set aside. In these moments, away from the larger meetings, my clients were told (and I heard when I was invited to these small gatherings) that if they quit their Lithium or Depakote, if they stopped their Lexapro, Abilify or Resperidone, and worked harder by attending more meetings and working more steps, their problems would subside, The result of this advice was higher relapse rates for my clients, and increased hospitalizations.

Seeking help from outside sources is encouraged and is common. Again, another principal occasionally voiced within meetings but disregarded outside the meeting. In numerous meetings I attended and those attended by my clients-- the medical community, therapy, and other forms of “rehab” such as Smart Recovery, were quickly dispensed with in one or two sentences as the group would reemphasize the primacy of AA as the solution for a “spiritual disease”.

You can't be kicked out of AA for blasphemy or heresy - or, for that matter, for not doing the steps or not having a sponsor. Outspoken atheists are tolerated and welcomed. The operative term here is “tolerated” which would indicate that one is put up with, endured, stomached and suffered through. In meetings, members who were atheists, those who did not have a sponsor, and those who were repeat relapsers, were allowed, frequently welcomed and oftentimes tolerated: outside of meetings, many were shunned, ostracized and the repeat relapser was frequently overlooked. In one meeting for example, a woman who had relapsed several times, was not allowed to speak as the group went around- she was openly told to sit down and listen. She sat in the back quietly crying the entire hour. After the meeting, she remained seated for another 15-20 minutes as the group slowly dispersed: no one attempted to comfort or offer support. She walked away quietly once the room was fairly empty, went outside and waited for support from her “AA family,” of many years—none came. She got in her car and went home alone.

This is the main difference between AA and cults and religions. The general criticsims of AA would apply to any other support group. It would be naive to think LifeRing, or any other group with often vulnerable and unstable populations - are safe havens free to a much greater degrees of predators. This is a red herring statement--- a diversion from the issue at hand, which is the unequivocal contrast between what is promoted and what is daily practice in AA. In addition, comparing AA to another group to give explanation for its actions does not release AA from how it behaves as a group. It is also known as irrelevant conclusion or irrelevant thesis in that while the argument “might” be valid, it does not address the issues raised here.

Overall, this defense of AA is a reminder of George Orwell’s book, Nineteen Eighty-Four, where shades of meaning were removed and a new language, termed Newspeak, (e.g., that’s stinkin thinking; the farther you are from your last drink, the closer you are to your next one; don't drink, don't think and go to meetings; A. A. is the last stop on the train; I came, I came, I came to believe; if you leave you’ll surely die; surrender to become victorious) was created as a way to reinforce the dominance of the group over self regulation, self assessment, self reliance and self empowerment. Thoughts, language that did not fit Newspeak, the spotting of dichotomies between AA “doctrine” and reality, and other deviations in speech and thought, were quickly removed from the vocabulary of the people. Eventually, what remained was a staccato rhythm or very short syllables (i.e., sayings and phrases) designed to reduce the need for deep thought or analysis. Thinking outside of Newspeak became a “thought crime or “crime think” and anyone engaged in thought-crime was viewed as Dead (Your best thinking got you here; Don’t think, just feel; Don’t question those with greater sobriety).

In this Orwellian world, there was a Ministry of Truth and Thought Police, and those who spoke in Old Speak and thought in Old Speak……………..”

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

PS To use “comment” system simply click on “Comments” tab below this article and sign in. All comments go through a moderation stage

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments. We quote:

“AA Retention Rate - Jim - Sep 18th 2009

AA in 1993 had 2.3 million members worldwide in it's group count records. (The triennial survey does not survey membership numbers.) The AA group database last year said the total membership shown by all the groups worldwide was 1.89 million I believe. In other words, using the same database, membership has declined about 400,000 from the peak. So, from the treetop level, AA has a negative growth rate. So the "success rate" is actually negative from that viewpoint.

The number of people in the US each year who go through drug and alcohol treatment programs is estimated at about one million. 93% of those treatment programs are 12th-step based. So, several hundred thousand people each year are exposed to AA meetings for some period of time. There are 1.3 million AA members in North America by AA's official group count. My conclusion is that there are a few hundred thousand core AA members with long-term sobriety and the rest of the "membership" is those treatment people cycling through each year.

It's hard to know how many long-term AA members there are. The Grapevine, the official magazine, first reached a circulation of 100,000 subscribers in 1978. It peaked in '93 at the same time the membership peaked, at 138,000. Today the GV circulation stands at 102,000. Again, no growth. The GV surveys estimate that the magazine has a "passalong" rate of 4 X. So, we have possibly 400,000 members who are devoted enough to read the official magazine. Not much to hang your hat on, but just as good as all the other guessing that goes on in an anonymous organization that keeps virtually no records and does little or no research to speak of.

I joined AA in 1981 when we had one million members. On my tenth anniversary, we had more than doubled. That would be a growth rate of 7.2%. With a current count of 1.89 million, we have a growth rate since I joined of less than 2.5%. Given that more than 10-15 million people at least have been introduced to AA in that time by treatment centers and courts, etc., it's hard for me to conceive of the merits of a debate about AA's "retention rate" or its "success rate." Neither are very high, very obviously, if you know the mega picture. (Here we could venture into the unknowable and say, well maybe a whole lot of those quit drinking because of what they learned in a few AA meetings. I don't know many AA's who would regard that as a "success rate," however.)

On AA's 30th anniversary in 1965 Bill W. asked "so where are the 600,000" that came and didn't stay? We have the same question today, but the number is in the high millions as AA gets ready to celebrate its 75th anniversary on June 10 next year.

AA's triennal survey shows the membership to be an average age of 47, sober about 8 years I think off the top of my head. Approximately 90% of the members are white, and those numbers are not changing appreciably with the dramatic demographic changes in the US population. The US census bureau estimates our country will be minority white by 2042. AA is going to somehow have to miraculously either bring in the minorities that have not flocked to it over the decades, or else it is going to have to dramatically increase its penetration rate in the white population, if it is to remain anywhere near its current size in a decade or so.

Between the "demographic determinism" of the above, the increasing secularization of the US, the decline of residential treatment programs, the obvious retreat from the disease model of alcoholism and the retreat of professionals from the AA "model" in favor of pharmaceutical and behavior treament programs, it's very easy to surmise that AA will likely be a very small organization on its 100th anniversary. I could add as well the information now available on the internet that makes two things very clear: AA is not the only way by any stretch to quit drinking, and there are plenty of downsides to AA groups almost everywhere.

I say the above as an AA member who will celebrate 28 years of sobriety next Tuesday and will say unabashedly it saved my life and enriched my life. But I am not among those in AA who wishes to pretend (in the face of the obvious evidence) that this is a movement that is thriving in its attractiveness to newcomers, is retaining some outlandish percentage of those who come to it for help, or that if AA would just get back to some model of "primitive AA," all would be well. We have a core group of a few hundred thousand members in the US--many of them the 50,000 or so who will attend the San Antonio convention next July--and the rest are the folks cycling through from treatment centers and the courts.

I have several observations about what may have happened to AA. One of them is this: The first members who wrote the Big Book said, "We know only a little. More will be revealed." Bill W. and many of the early leaders were fascinated with what more could be learned about alcoholism, how it could be treated, etc., and, most importantly, how AA could be most responsive to the next alcoholic who walked into the rooms.

Today AA is not a learning organization. It is not open to new ideas. It is not open minded to listen to either its concerned friends or let alone its critics. We are frozen into organizational rigidity at a time of incredible changes in the societal milieu in which we exist.

AA member's response to all this--there being none from the headquarters or general service conference--is to flail about trying to say "the numbers our critics use have got to be wrong...you don't know how high the success rate is in my group..." or, alternatively, to retreat into primitive AA mode and say, "We'd get back to the 75% success rate if we made all the newcomers get on their knees and recite the Third Step Prayer just like Dr. Bob did."

It's going to be incredibly fascinating to see if some leadership emerges in AA to change the organization's future, if AA fractures into a myriad group of organizations, or if it gets replaced by a support organization that is more palatable to those who need help. The trigger for change could be more court decisions that stop the flow of newcomers from that source; it could be the growth of treatment centers that offer alternatives to step-based recovery; it could be additional breakthroughs in medicine that go beyond the somewhat promising pharmaceutical tools physicians now have; or, it could be a sound study of sufficient stature that says "there are a few things AA has discovered that actually work, but here are the things that must be added for it to be most efficacious for the largest number of alcoholics."

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

PS To use “comment” system simply click on “Comments” tab below this article and sign in. All comments go through a moderation stage

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments. We quote:

“AA Grapevine - Guy - Oct 13th 2009

One only needs to read the Grapevine to see and feel that independent thought is accepted and that the unpopular view is there and is valued. Grab a handful of them and scan the articles and see for yourself. Some of the topics in here are also explored in this publication. Now what your home group is doing can be a different matter. If you don't like the way you see AA being applied in the group you attend start your own group. There is some self acclaimed AA Gurus in my Home Group. I call them 'the prescribers' as they always share in a way that says your program is not the program and I have it and you better get it or else. These people assume you need the book interpreted for you, they report on there sponsees progress and during there 'shares keep the focus off themselves or saying anything about there problems because they can't allow anyone to view them as anything but PERFECT AA. Bill W. also addresses a this attitude in THE BEST OF BILL. So I went to the Group Conscience and got approval to have a Grapevine meeting once a week. None of the Gurus come to it, I am happy.”

“AA supervised by professionals - Mary - Oct 12th 2009

….... said that he felt AA should be supervised by professionals, but as a 17 year sober member of the fellowship it would scare me that the "professionals" chosen would inevitably be the same kind of power-driven AAers that seem to go into the treatment field. I actually agree with the folks that point out that abuse occurs, especially within the sponsor/sponcee relationship; but my fear is that a "moderated" AA would be no different from the treatment center I lived in for 10 months when I was newly sober, homeless, and almost without hope. The place was bordering on a cult, because I couldn't leave due to circumstances, we were controlled completely (I was even grilled because I enjoyed the Fantasy and Sci Fi genra in books, accused of wanting to live in a fantasy world) and we were ruled by fear of the two ladies in charge using things we said in our therapy sessions against us in community to humiliate us into compliance. I never want to be in a situation like that again. I am fortunate, I have a sponsor who is not controlling, I could not have survived much more hard control after what I went through prior to sobriety. Other people seem to seek out very controlling people to dictate their life and put them down because they are told that is what AA has to be. It is not what AA has to be, but we have a very bad paradigm that takes over and spreads through treatment centers and via the disgusting circuit speaker worshipping that goes on. I am an AA member who sees some of the problems being discussed here and I strive to not be a part of those problems, and I don't attend meetings that are a part of those problems.

I do support AA because it offered me a freedom in sobriety that I didn't have in that treatment center for 10 months, I can share with other people and grow without the fear and control. I support my home group and some other groups, and sponsor a couple of women (people who want a dictator usually don't want me as a sponsor) but I honestly do wish AA would do its own inventory. I don't see attending my kindly home group as something to be ashamed of, something that makes me some kind of freak that doesn't know how to live. People attend all kinds of social groups, there is no shame because this one is AA. I think that is the worst thing that pops up in this discussion, that if someone chooses to have AA and AA people as a part of their life that it makes them less of a person than someone who doesn't. We may need a little bit of middle ground. “

(our edits)

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

PS To use “comment” system simply click on “Comments” tab below this article and sign in. All comments go through a moderation stage

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments. We quote:

“my experience with 2 yrs of AA

I do not believe that AA is a cult, nor do I believe that it doesn't work for some people. I do, however, believe that the AA program has two major shortcomings. One major problem I see with AA is the way members of the program diagnose an "alcoholic." They pretty much assume that if you are there at a meeting, you have a hopeless "disease" in which you either work the progam or die an alcoholic death. If you are not working the program you are a "Dry Drunk." If you question whether or not you are an "alcoholic" you are most definitely in denial. I had members of AA tell me this after my first meeting without even knowing me personally or my drinking background. The second major problem is the program today is forced on people who have merely had isolated incidents in their lives and are not real alcoholics. Why are these major problems with the AA program? Consider this: Not everybody who is introduced into AA is a "true" alcoholic. Keep in mind that the founder of the program, Bill Wilson, was drinking two to three bottles of bathtub gin a day. These are the kinds of people who need AA, but today's AA is mostly void of these kinds of people. For example, my introduction to AA is much like many other people's introduction into today's AA program. I got a DWI (Driving while intoxicated) when I was 24. On the suggestion of my attorney, I attended several AA meetings voluntarily before my court date so that I could show the judge that I was taking positive steps to better my situation before showing up to court. In response, the court ordered me to 3 meetings a week for the duration of my probation which was 1 1/2 years. So, as you can see, I have been to several AA meetings involuntarily. I would say I have observed at least 1/2 of the people attending these meetings were also either court ordered or sent their involuntarily. AA has been good and bad for me. I had to drop most of my previous friends at the time of my arrest and became friends with mostly alcoholics in the program due to my extensive amount of time spent there. AA has some great people with good intentions. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I do not go to AA today by choice. It is very depressing and I find it hurts my outlook on life more than helps it. I was actually told by a member of AA that because he did not work the steps properly that "he wanted to put a gun in his mouth at 25 yrs sober." He was implying this would happen to me. I have never been suicidal in my life and if I were at 25 yrs sober I do not believe it would have anything to do with alcoholism. That was my final bout with AA. Today I am involved in the things that I enjoy in life. I make positive choices for myself. Mountain biking, rock climbing, volunteering, spending time with the people that I love in my life. I meet people through these positive activities instead of hanging out in bars and this has increased my standard of life dramatically. I attribute my experience to growing up and learning from my mistakes rather than "alcoholism." On the downside, nearly all of the people I have met over the 1 1/2 years of attending AA I no longer have friendships with. Why? Because I am a "dry drunk" to them and will most likely die an alcoholic death. This has been very disturbing and damaging to me and hard for me to swallow. I still see some friends that I met in AA upon occasion. But it is a weird and uncomfortable experience in which they act concerned about my well being and try to get me to come back to meetings. Honestly, I feel that I am better off meeting positive people outside of the AA program for this very reason. It seems that even some members with 20 plus years sobriety have extreme difficulty in moving on with their lives. I simply do not see how a behavior that they quit 20 yrs ago can still have such a big impact on their lives. Maybe someone like Bill Wilson who put themselves through the "alcoholic" ringer needs that kind of daily support. However, for at least for me that kind of thinking keeps me from moving on to bigger and better things.”

Comment: This demonstrates the inadvisability of 'diagnosing' other people to be alcoholic, and the questionable practice of 'enforced' (via DWI etc) attendance at AA meetings.

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

PS To use “comment” system simply click on “Comments” tab below this article and sign in. All comments go through a moderation stage

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments. We quote:

“AA's Role in Addiction Treatment Needs Re-evaluation - - Mar 10th 2008

I am an alcoholic. I also have bi-polar disorder. I have also been a member of the Unification Church, known more widely as the "Moonies".

I think this triangulation of experience has given me some good insight into the dynamic interplay between mental health issues, medicine, and religion and cults as healing tools.

I first joined AA as a 15 year old in Northern California while I was at boarding school, because I knew the nature of my substance use was unhealthy and destructive. I did not believe in God at the time, but quickly adopted the mystical & ritualized attitude proscribed by AA because I was desperate to get well. I was also in rigorous therapy at the time with our school counselor, who I later discovered was actually also a member of the Indian eastern philosophy cult, SYDA Yoga.

Having undiagnosed bipolar disorder and under the supervision of a highly educated, but boundary blurring mystical therapist, I was particularly ripe for diving into "spiritualized" ways of interpreting reality. I also was being very well educated myself, so I learned early on in this process how to tolerate cognitive dissonance between what my critical thinking would tell me and what I thought God itself was communicating to me through the events around me. I tended to err on the God side, taking a cue from the old adage "God works in mysterious ways" ie. illogical, sometimes strange, ways. However, I did temper myself somewhat with my remaining intellectual powers.

Predictably this became quite an extensive routine of mental gymnastics split between a constant interpretation of signs and interconnections or synchronicities and attempts at rational analysis of a given situation.

I did stay sober and got that AA version of happy, which is sort of a subdued ecstasy, and unrelenting dedication through constant repetition of a set of behaviors and trigger terms. I seemed quite normal for a young artist, but then again, no one had x-ray glasses to view my logic process which, as I stated was split at best. Only my therapist and other AA's were somewhat in on it and that was the understood way of being in that community.

AA also practices the cultic technique of an insider doctrine and an outsider doctrine. While the steps are public knowledge, what is understood about their meaning and interpretation becomes secularized for outsiders and sacredly mystical for insiders.

That is one of the reasons it disturbs me that health professionals are willing to recommend people to AA after what can only be described as plainly superficial research on the organization. Word of mouth is not a scientific tool, and yet that seems to be enough to convince many doctors that this treatment is worthy of what often becomes a lifetime attempt at a cure.

In any case, I returned to LA to live with my family in Brentwood, just down the street from the central meeting location of Clancy Imusland's Pacific Group. Naturally, I went there, because of its proximity, I had never heard about it. I was pretty lonely at the time, being a sober teenager isn't easy, and was grateful for the swarms of people surrounding me, circling meetings in the list book for me and giving me guidance.

I quickly got absorbed into the group's meeting routine, sponsorship techniques (as a sponsee), sexist practices, elitist attitude, weekends at Clancy's house, parties, dances, dinners on and on. It was my first introduction into the structured cult lifestyle. While much looser than many hard core cults, I have come to understand that the cultic phenomena is a well defined but broad spectrum of group behaviors rather than a single point a group arrives at in its practices. In my estimation AA in general falls on the lower end of that spectrum, but is definitely a major player as one of the largest thriving cultic groups that generally flies under the radar in terms of being identified as such. I would place the Pacific Group of AA in a more advanced category of behavioral control and thought reform.

Two years later I left for college in Westchester, NY where I met an old charismatic man in AA who seemed to understand God in the passionate and dedicated way that I did. He was interesting, very verbal, and creative. Against my better judgement I took him on as a sponsor, after all, he was old, and he was speaking my language. He actually actively worked on integrating me into his life for about a month before the sponsorship occurred. We entered into a cabal of two where over time secrecy became the rule. Ultimately he molested me sexually repeatedly and I became convinced that it was God's will.

It was then that I met a Moonie recruiter on Broadway in NYC who got me to take a survey on belief and guided me up to their offices. He was young and friendly and I was instantly drawn to the idea that there might be a young community of bright believers like me. I agreed to go on a seven day "youth leadership program", which was, of course, (although I didn't get it at the time) an invitation to a compound where they could test my responsiveness to a very seriously engineered thought reform environment.

Well I was primed for this experience on multiple levels and as the week passed there I learned that the Moonies forbid unwed sex of any kind and that pretty much sealed the deal for me. I was attracted by their fervor and dedication, their energy and intelligence, and I felt like I would finally find some protection from a sexual predator like the sponsor I had been involved with.

I won't go into my experience with the Moonies, you can read about it on the web by googling "Cathryn Mazer Unification Church". There was a lot written about it at one time because the Today Show covered my family's harrowing search for me once I disappeared into the cult.

I think it's more important to point out that I have tried AA a few times since leaving the Moonies and having become somewhat educated about the nature and variety of the cultic experience. Each time I try it again I find myself more and more uncomfortable with its practices.

While it doesn't require that one believes in a specific God, it does demand that one believes in a God, while simultaneously stating that it doesn't, by applying a kind of double-speak rhetoric, in the "as we understood Him" addendum. Double speak is one of AA's most frequently applied mind control techniques and I believe (at this time based more on experience than research) that it is the primary tool by which it retains members. For instance while it states that "the only requirement for AA membership is the desire to stop drinking", my experience has been that refusal to do the steps, get a sponsor, read the big book, and/or regularly attend meetings (usually depending on the community at least 3 times a week) clearly elicits vocal disapproval and often results in social ostracism. While the member is not banned outright he or she is shunned in various ways. The necessity, vital importance of doing all of these things, in order to physically survive alcoholism/addiction, is constantly asserted during sharing at all kinds of different meetings.

Veiled and not so veiled threats of terrible sickness and death if one leaves the group is a common feature of AA in general. Regardless of the fact that current research in no way bears this out, it is a common understanding in the program, and is a terrifying method of retaining membership.

Furthermore, sponsors are not qualified to be counselors and this is absolutely their expected role in AA. Having been in therapy and in and out of AA for over half of my life I can honestly say that my best sponsor was far less helpful to me than my worst counselor, and believe me, I have encountered some crackpots.

The internal sense of the steps and the overall behavioral program of AA is that it is a sacred science and that the only reason it wouldn't work well is because it is not being practiced rigorously enough or because of the personal shortcomings of the practitioner. It is never entertained that the system may have any fundamental flaws. To suggest so in a meeting will generally produce an arctic chill in the room and result in many fervent rebuttals, disdain, pity, patient explanation, social rejection etc.

Constant verbal repetition and loaded language which uses words in our english lexicon with new meanings ascribed to them becomes an insiders code and how well someone uses this code can help determine their status in the community. This also lends itself to double speak in that a sentence that may seem innocuous to an outsider could have coded meaning to a member. Members also learn how to reshape their perception in their minds of their drinking lives according to AA logic and language and are ritually trained by going to constant meetings how to verbally testify about their lives out of and then in AA. Any alternative view of the alcoholic life process is generally rejected, although usually with the caveat that, "it may work for them, but it doesn't work for me".

There is also a wide misconception that there is a great variety of meetings in the world. I find this to be another form of double speak. While each meeting has its own flavor and community, in general the ritual and the content is always the same. There are a few content options - the speaker meeting with sharing, the large speaker meeting without sharing, the big book study meeting, the step & tradition meeting, and the meditation meeting. The steps are hung on scrolls on the wall, the meeting is opened with a reading from the big book, sometimes other AA literature, the form proceeds according to the content category, and it is closed with a prayer and chant ("keep coming back! It works if you work it, so work it you're worth it!" is one that comes to mind). Despite the wide variety of communities in which meetings take place, I have found that the unspoken yet intense pressure to use language and logic according to what I consider to be a rigid AA form is consistent across these communities. Window dressing may be added but I've found that is mainly superficial.

I have attended meetings in Northern California - San Francisco, Berkeley, Danville, Walnut Creek; Southern California - Los Angeles including Brentwood, Beverly Hills, Hollywood, North Hollywood, West LA, Venice as well as in communities south of LA; in Oregon briefly (forget the town's name); in New York - Westchester various towns including Bronxville, Yonkers, and Hastings, - New York City - West Village, East Village, Times Square, Madison Sq. Garden area, Upper East Side, Upper West Side, Williamsburg and Park Slope Brooklyn; in New Zealand - Wellington; at treatment centers and rehabs; etc.

Point being - my opinion is not based on a few meetings in a few communities.

Lastly, what I find most reprehensible in the mental health, medical, and judicial systems use of referrals to AA and its sister programs is that it has clearly become an easy dumping ground for them that requires little or no effort or investment on their part. It seems that it is so convenient that the necessity for a responsible vetting that would be required with almost any other treatment regimen is simply ignored. Even the academic discussion of AA's role in addiction treatment seems mainly based on anecdotal evidence. Why do the scientific, medical, theraputic, civic, and even cult awareness communities turn such a blind eye?

Usually a cult member will tell you that they're happier and safer than they've ever been in their lives, that the group is a force for good and helps thousands of people, regardless of what group they belong to. Rarely do current members of an active cult express misgivings about their organization, only some of the people in it who are bad apples that misrepresent the group as a whole. This kind of expression of total satisfaction can be a dead giveaway that the system is successfully utilizing thought reform techniques.

I recommend Robert J Lifton's "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" to anyone interested in learning about mind and behavioral control.”

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

PS To use “comment” system simply click on “Comments” tab below this article and sign in. All comments go through a moderation stage

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments

“Dr Dombeck do you recommend AA to clients or others? What are your feelings about AA?

Dr. Dombeck's Note: I used to be very positively biased towards AA. In the wake of this essay and many conversations I've had since then with earnest people who have had bad experiences within AA I am more ambivalent. I continue to hear very positive stories about AA from some people, and I have become aware of what seems to be abusive practices that occur and some fair degree of intolerance and dangerous ignorance that can be present in the rooms (which is particularly acute with regard to dually diagnosed people who may be counseled to not follow doctor's treatment recommendations in the name of sobriety). These days, my advice is to ask a client what they would like to do. I strongly would urge them to seek out some sort of peer support group in addition to formal treatment but I do not think that AA is the only or even the best form that such peer support can take. Rather, it depends upon the individual; his or her personality, experiences and resources as to whether AA will be a good fit or not. I'm biased towards scientifically derived and tested programs whenever they are available, and so like some of the AA alternatives based on such techniques. I also recognize that techniques, while important, generally pale in the face of social support and peer pressure as a means of motivating people to stick with something as difficult as maintaining sobriety after addiction has occurred. My counsel would be learn about all the programs and then access more than one of them and stay with the program that you have the best experience with.“

Comment: Some intelligent advice

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

PS To use “comment” system simply click on “Comments” tab below this article and sign in. All comments go through a moderation stage

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments

“how to protect the vulnerable in AA …....

Unfortunately I think that GSO would be able to beat a Midtown-like lawsuit.There really is too wide a separation between the groups and NY. However I do believe that the hosting facilities (most of which are churches) can be spooked enough to ban groups on a case by case basis, unless such groups show that they have proper guidelines in place to protect the vulnerable. In my mind these guidelines would include:

- A stated group policy concerning admission for parolees, registered sex offenders.

- A stated group policy regarding sponsorship qualifications, background checks.

Think about it. If I as a pastor or facilities manager have opened my doors to a group that does not have such policies in place then I am being negligent in my responsibility to protect visitors to my facility. To me, it’s almost like not adhering to the fire code.

All it will take is one civil lawsuit that links a meeting place to having facilitated abuse by an AA group. Trust me, the hike in insurance premiums will then cause many doors to close to AA.

I’m actually thinking of sending out letters to a number of churches in my area warning them of the potential for abuse within the groups. I bet it will have an impact on making AA more accountable.

…....”

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

PS To use “comment” system simply click on “Comments” tab below this article and sign in. All comments go through a moderation stage

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments

“For 15 plus years, I have been attending AA meetings. And during this time, i have struggled. I have struggled with the AA-Nazi's, the Big Book Thumpers, the preachers, the dogmatics and the like. Among the reasons for this struggle is that I never heard them trying to help me. What I heard them saying was that they would not accept me as I am, and they would not accept me until, or unless, I did certain things [ the steps their way, accept their belief in their Higher Power, etc.]. I heard rejection. Rejection of me as I am. They seemed to offer only conditional acceptance. Acceptance if, and when, I did what they told me to do [meaning their way].

Recently, at a meeting, it struck me. After hearing a few "Nazi's" and Thumpers telling the "newbies" all the things they MUST do, I realized,..... it was..... the BORG!

"Resistance is futile" they would say. They wanted to assimilate me, and the "newbies" into their "collective!"

I can't do this. I can't conform. I can't fit in. I must resign myself to living on the fringe of AA.

Sometimes its a bit lonely here, and other times, I find there are more people on the fringe than I realized! 

Anyone else out there on the fringe?”

Comment: Plenty! You're not alone! 

Cheers 

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult? (contd)

See here for original blog entry

Under Readers' comments

“I haven't drank in 4 years, and I had a really bad drinking problem and a miserable life. I was a mess, bussing tables in a restaurant, college dropout, could hardly keep up with bills - etc. If it weren't for AA I'm pretty sure I'd still be drinking. I found the most amazing and life changing discoveries and attitudes -- using the steps and meetings as a SPRINGBOARD (It did not come directly from them, although they definitely have a good benefit). I read a lot of outside literature and changed so much for the better in these last 4 years. However, I've noticed SO many people who never get past dogma and slogans. I know some people with 30 years who are just grumpy and self-deprecating through and through. I also discovered, and I'm so glad I was spared this, that there are genuine, hands down, no question about it cults inside of AA. It's not every single person in the program, probably a very small percentage, but the way AA is set up it unfortunately lends itself to this sort of problem.

Sponsorship is really helpful in the beginning, but the reliance on that sponsor should naturally decline as time goes on. However, and It's very unfortunate to say this, but when I run into a newcomer who needs guidance, and for whatever reason doesn't ask me (I don't push myself on people -- even in a passive aggressive way that some AAs do), I can think of very few people to direct him to.

If there is one thing that I dislike about AA it's the prevalent anti-intellectualism. Some of my greatest growth came from questioning and meditating on my problems, not pushing them out of my mind and writing it off with something like, "My best thinking got me here!" I still get a lot out of AA, and I seriously believed that if I didn't have a big group of sober people around me I wouldn't have stopped drinking, but it's very unfortunate to see the intellectual/personality casualties.”

Cheers

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult?

Quote:

“We've got a comment system on Mental Help Net, and lately we've been getting a lot of comments regarding an old essay I wrote concerning Alcoholics Anonymous. The essay, titled "AA is to shame as a hot knife is to butter", presents a generally positive view of the Alcoholic's Anonymous fellowship and twelve step programs in general. The positive view expressed in that essay came out of my experience working for a year (during my postdoctoral fellowship) in a partial hospital program (otherwise known as an IOP or Intensive Outpatient Program) for dually diagnosed people.....

My positive impression of AA came out of that year of experience; watching the patients rise and fall and noting when people were able to keep it together and when they weren't. You could pretty much tell who was going to use after a little while. The folks most likely to use (or never stop using) were those most deeply in denial about their drug problem; who could not submit to the idea that their drug use was actually a problem. The ones who could never settle on a sponsor; who would lie to you saying that they had not used recently, when you had their positive urine test results in your hand.

My experience with AA was never very much first hand. I have been to exactly two AA meetings in my life. Both were observational in nature, a "field trip" if you will, so that I could see what I was recommending to my patients. What I saw during those two meetings was non-remarkable. People speaking about their drinking issues and receiving support from the group; pretty much what you'd expect. These experiences took the novelty of the thing away from me, but hardly qualify as a good sample of what AA is about. More to the point, my impression of AA's usefulness came from our patients, and from our staff, a few of whom were in recovery themselves. The point was made in my head that addicts are unable at first to control their own behavior, and thus need and benefit from programs like AA that help to set limits on them.

Its no secret that AA's focus on submission to a higher power has broad potential for abuse. That focus on submission and making amends is there for a very important reason - it encourages the growth of empathy and social solidarity in participant addicts; qualities which help them resist the lure of their drugs. And yet, that very submission also comes with a terrible vulnerability. It is important that anyone teaching submission as a way of life also be a kind and loving person, because otherwise, that submission becomes the basis for cult-like cohesion, as the commenter points out. Sociopathic types who also tend to be addicts are very likely to get themselves into AA and then use it for their selfish purposes. At any given moment within AA, there are going to be people who are honestly struggling with remaining sober and people who are using and not admitting it, or not taking the steps necessary to end it; people who understand hurt and who want to help others stop hurting and people who are all too willing to use other people for selfish purposes.

"Stick With The Winners" was the slogan I liked the best. Some meetings are better than others, because there is more beneficial order and kindness available there, and less sociopathy and sickness. If you are an addict in a twelve step situation, and you find that situation abusive (and not simply limiting of your urges), it seems to me that you need to find a better meeting; not quit entirely.

What are your thoughts? There must be some people out there who feel they have benefited from AA and twelve step. There must be other people who feel abused or put off by the process too. Do you have any advice or comments for the person who wrote the above comment? For me (grin!), as a doctor (like so many doctors) willing to write about and recommend things he has not lived or experienced first hand himself? Can there be submission to a higher power without abuse taking place? How do you handle abusive attitudes and individuals within AA and other twelve step programs? What are the merits of twelve step. And if you can't think of any merits, what are the better alternatives?”

Source: MentalHelp.net

(our emphases)

Comment: There then follow some readers' comments (which you may view for yourselves on the above site). We will be publishing a selection of the more cogent over the next few weeks. Perhaps we may learn something from this experience!

Cheerio

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)