Conference Questions (2013) forum discussion (contd)

Committee No. 4

Question 2:

Would the Fellowship discuss, share experience and make recommendations whether, throughout AA's service structure, members of special interest groups are sufficiently represented?

[See also: The Traditions, Preamble and Concepts]

“Well, …....., you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I. I disagree with yours. There aren’t any women’s groups in my area, but plenty of women in the AA meetings. That’s because the meetings in my area tend to go along with AA traditions and are inclusive to all alcoholics whatever their oddity or special purpose. I guess the women gather in groups to talk about their women alcoholic things outside the meetings over a game of ten pin bowling or something. Or maybe they take up the suggestion in the Big Book on page 74 and talk them over with a doctor or a psychologist. I go along with …... in the above article “A sense of humor seems to be the remedy here--plus the first active practice of a little humility.” “

“Thanks ….... perhaps I did misunderstand you. Perhaps you misunderstood me. On the whole I don’t think alcoholics are the best of communicators, but I’m sure our intent is for the best. I’m glad we agree on something. I go along with “live and let live” up to a point, but not beyond the limits defined in Tradition Four; Concept XII, warranties five and six; and guideline 17. I think there are certain times when to say “live and let live” is to avoid social responsibility.

I think the “live and let live” slogan was intended to remind each individual AA member within a meeting to have the humility to tolerate other’s freedom of opinion and speech and to allow them to find their own way as to how they decide to interpret the AA program for themselves. It was not intended for AA members to turn a blind eye to deviance from AA Traditions which protect our common welfare. Contrary to “live and let live” in certain instances, Traditions One, Four, and Concept XII, warranty five call for the right to assert responsible action: “ Privately, however, we can inform Traditions-violators that they are out of order. When they persist, we can follow up by using such other resources of persuasion as we may have, and these are often considerable. Manifested in this fashion, a persistent firmness will often bring the desired result.” (Extract, Concept XII, Warranty Five). This social responsibility in Traditions is broadly summed up in these extracts from guideline 17:

“In terms of AA Tradition, it is the responsibility of all of us to ensure that the carrying of the message, whether to prospective or new or vulnerable or established members, is done honestly and decently. We also understand that our Twelve Traditions including that of Group autonomy does not place Groups or members above the law, and that when individuals act injuriously to others they are legally accountable. This will, of course, be generally understood in that our First Tradition reminds us that all members and Groups have a responsibility in respect to the common welfare and protection of the individual member.” (Extract, Guideline 17)

“Failure to challenge and stop inappropriate behaviour gives the offender permission to repeat the offensive behaviour and encourages others to follow suit.” (Extract, Guideline 17)

On the point of the slogan “live and let live” I think the meaning of this is summed up by the following:

“The paradox is that the member of A.A. approaches his suffering alcoholic brother not from the superiority and strength of his position of recovery but from the realization of his own weakness. The member talks to the newcomer not in a spirit of power but in a spirit of humility and weakness. He does not speak of how misguided the still suffering alcoholic is; he speaks of how misguided he once was. He does not sit in judgement of another but in judgment of himself as he had been”. (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age p 279)

“Newcomers are approaching AA at the rate of tens of thousands yearly. They represent almost every belief and attitude imaginable. We have atheists and agnostics. We have people of nearly every race, culture and religion. In AA we are supposed to be bound together in the kinship of a common suffering. Consequently, the full individual liberty to practice any creed or principle or therapy whatever should be a first consideration for us all. Let us not, therefore, pressure anyone with our individual or even our collective views. Let us instead accord each other the respect and love that is due to every human being as he tries to make his way toward the light. Let us always try to be inclusive rather than exclusive; let us remember that each alcoholic among us is a member of AA, so long as he or she so declares.” (Extract “Responsibility is Our Theme” AA Grapevine July 1965, The Language of the Heart page 333)

“For example The Twelve Steps are not crammed down anybody’s throat. They are not sustained by any human authority.” (“Rules Dangerous but Unity Vital” AA Grapevine September 1945, The Language of the Heart page 8)

I think within the general theme of the Traditions and Concepts there is the responsibility to guide group policy toward the Traditions. I don’t think it is a matter of ostracizing groups, but informing them of Traditions. If they feel ostracized by an informing of Traditions, then they have made their choice. They can either abide by Traditions or feel ostracised. “Each group has but one primary purpose...” I think it really is as simple as that. If women want to book a hall and have a hen night then that’s fine, just don’t call it an AA meeting, or just list the meeting on the meetings list without the “women’s” bit. That goes for any other "special interest" meeting. I think this because one day a lonely, unemployed, homeless, scruffy, shaking, depressed, smelly and confused, 3’2” high, gay, male, Moslem turned Christian turned Hindu turned Atheist turned Agnostic turned Alcoholic dwarf, who’s having a lot of trouble walking along the pavement without tripping over his beard, and who’s paranoid he’s different from everybody else, is desperate, but has plucked up his courage to get to an AA meeting, might just give that women’s meeting a miss. This, because he looks at “women’s” bit on the meetings list, and fears he won’t fit in. Then gripped with that pit of lonely despair which he knows can’t wait ’til tomorrow, he goes somewhere else and gets drunk. And he never comes back. And nobody in AA knows that he almost came and went. I sometimes wonder how many alcoholics almost come to AA and go, before they even walk through the door. One cannot tell. So I think it’s better to always remember the still suffering alcoholics, because we have to keep AA meetings dead simple for them.”

Comment: In connection with the above guideline perhaps it's time AA groups, intergroups etc adopted and implemented a formal complaints procedure in order to deal with any abuses that fall short of criminal conduct!

Cheerio

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

See also AA Minority Report 2013

Conference Questions (2013) forum discussion (contd)

Committee No. 4

Question 2:

Would the Fellowship discuss, share experience and make recommendations whether, throughout AA's service structure, members of special interest groups are sufficiently represented?

[See also: The Traditions, Preamble and Concepts]

Extracts:

“......- you have a penchant for quoting very liberally from literature, both relevant (Traditions, A.A. Comes Of Age, etc.), and sometimes less so. Just because an article has been published in The Grapevine does not make it gospel. Quite frankly, it is a long time since I have read such tosh. It was nonsense in 1946, and is outdated nonsense in 2013.

We have had three women's groups start up in our area during the last couple of years. In order to comply with our local requirements (for inclusion in our local meetings list) two of them have defined themselves as "non-restrictive". The third is held in a women's refuge into which men are not admitted. Considerable heartsearching took place at the relevant intergroup to decide whether or not this group should be included and the final decision to include it was based essentially on the fact that the group would continue to meet regardless of the approval or otherwise of intergroup, and that, on balance, it was better "in the fold" than out. One of the three has subsequently died through lack of women.”

Comment: Yet another rationalisation (see previous conference question extract) exemplifying the unprincipled indeed hypocritical stance of these 'special interest' groups exacerbated thereafter by an entirely supine response from the local intergroup. A dramatic display of handwringing followed by capitulation on the grounds that they “would continue to meet regardless of the approval or otherwise of intergroup” hardly constitutes 'leadership' in any degree but rather a complete abdication of responsibility (so much for Tradition Four). And these are the guardians of AA tradition? We think not! Such groups should rather be encouraged to function outside the ambit of AA, and discouraged from referring to themselves as AA groups (according to our traditions). There can no objection whatsoever to all manner of recovery groups setting themselves up according to any format they like so long as they don't appropriate the AA name to gain further credibility for their activities. This is simply a form of parasitism.

Cheerio

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

See also AA Minority Report 2013

Conference Questions (2013) forum discussion (contd)

Committee No. 4

Question 2:

Would the Fellowship discuss, share experience and make recommendations whether, throughout AA's service structure, members of special interest groups are sufficiently represented?

[See also: The Traditions, Preamble and Concepts]

Extracts:

“Mindful of …...'s comment in committee Six Question Two, that this forum is where those in service can get background to the conference questions, I thought it would be a good idea to include this AA Grapevine article from 1946 as background. Special interest groups have been around for a long time, tolerated rather than encouraged I think. The wisdom in this article as relevant today as it was in 1946. Some things don’t change. I think it would be unwise to have representation of special interest women’s groups in the service structure.

‘Women's Meetings’ AA Grapevine October 1946
NOW that women form an increasing membership in Alcoholics Anonymous, there seems to be a general feeling that they not only have a specialized problem, but, like the purple cow we'd rather see, they are one! Once every blessed so often, a woman comes in, works on the program, learns to tolerate and even to like all her fellow-men-and-women, and in general makes herself an admirable member. But for every dozen who do that, there is a basketful who become a combination nuisance, headache and problem.

Now there are plenty of men who make trouble. But somehow the trouble women cause is either so dramatized, or so disheartening, so shoddy and unnecessary that it seems far larger and more important than it actually is. At any rate, an unfortunate or harmful episode here and there is no longer an isolated experience. And while the writer of this is just one woman A.A. sticking her neck out (and very grateful, thank you, for anonymity in doing so), it is the thoughtful opinion of a number of old-timers, in groups all over the country, that it might be well to recognize the special difficulties that women present and meet them honestly. So this is a symposium, gathered from a number of groups. And letters of opinion and reaction are welcome.

Not Blanket Indictment

Here, then, is a list of perplexities and snags. Because the resulting friction discourages newcomers, and because such matters often cause slips of members well along in sobriety, no one who seriously wants to do the best job possible with and for sick people, should postpone facing the subject. But remember, as you read, that the faults and complaints apply only to some women--to many, perhaps--but not to all. They are not blanket accusations of the sex.

Female Frailties
1. The percentage of women who stay with A.A. is low. Too many of them drop out after the novelty wears off; a few months to a year and a half.
2. Many women form attachments too intense--bordering on the emotional. Best-friends, crushes, hero-worship cause strained relationships.
3. So many women want to run things. To boss, manage, supervise, regulate and change things. Twenty want to decorate; one will scrub or mend what is already around.
4. Too many women don't like women.
5. Women talk too much. Gossip is a cancer to all A.A. groups and must be constantly watched. Men gossip far too much, too. But few men use it for punishment, or revenge, or cutting someone down to size. Once the news value has been absorbed, men generally drop a topic. But women worry the same dead mouse until it's unrecognizable.
6. Women are a questionable help working with men and vice versa. In 12th Step work, the intimate confidences often lead to the pity that's akin to love, and is often mistaken for same. The protective, the maternal, the inspirational interest often lands one or both in a broadside slip--and sometimes in extra-marital experiments, which, however clothed in the glory of "honesty," are disillusioning to many others, and frequently present a troubling question to those who are actually trying to live the 12 Steps.
7. Sooner or later, a woman-on-the-make sallies into a group, on the prowl for phone numbers and dates. Oddly enough, perhaps, she does not wear a placard and is not always easily recognized. Results of her operations can cause havoc.
8. A lot of women are attention demanders. Spotlight sisters. They want to be spoonfed, coaxed, babied, encouraged, teased, praised and personally conducted into recovery.
9. Few women can think in the abstract. Everything must be taken personally. Universal truths, to many women, are meaningless generalities. These women are impatient of philosophy, meditation and discussion. This is the kind of woman who figures "Just let's have this bargain; we'll pay so much faith down and the rest in installments." Which is a deceiving deal, for such buyers are generally the ones who have to watch the collector come and take the piano back.
10. Women's feelings get hurt too often. They rapidly and frequently are misunderstood.
11. Far too many women A.A.s cannot get along with the non-alcoholic wives of A.A. members. They feel ashamed or defiant, and they show it. Often they unwittingly forbid overtures--and then feel snubbed! Lots of A.A. women feel they attend a meeting to be helped--and concentrate to the point of rudeness on non-A.A. contacts. If they behave superciliously toward the non-alcoholic wives of members, they should hardly complain of being treated coolly in return.

Jealousy Crops Up

In a great many cases it is those non-alcoholic wives whose attitude causes the general ill-will. Too often they feel superior--and show it. Some are convinced that alcoholic women are loose morally--or have been and probably will be again! These suspect all women A.A.s as potential rivals. Even when no threat of sex is present at all, a large number of these wives resent closed meetings and the intimate talks and confidences at which no non-alcoholic can be present. They feel left out, hurt, outraged and resentful. And were we in their shoes, might we not find it hard medicine to let our man take? Even were we good sports, we might feel self-conscious in front of these same women. How many women A.A.s stop to realize that?

Before any other consideration, let us remind ourselves again that not all women have the faults mentioned, nor has any one woman all the faults. And human nature being what it is, a number of men have these selfsame faults to a disastrous degree. But somehow, women can cause more trouble, and what is even worse, keep the memory of the unpleasantness alive longer and more acutely.

Not all groups have suffered from having women alcoholics either. But those that have, and the individuals who care (1) that women make a success of recovery, and (2) that they hurt as few people as possible doing it, have given long and careful thought to the difficulties.

Tested and Suggested Solutions 

Here are some of the gems of wisdom--and please write in any thoughts you have on the subject:

A. Women drift away.
This seems to come from four causes:
1. Disapproving, or resentful, impatient, or possessive relatives. No woman will remain long with any interest if she is forever having to defy, or make apologies or take sarcasm from those closest to her.
2. Reaction. When the honeymoon is over and it's a matter of settling down to steady loving work, when the swing of the pendulum goes from excitement, discovery and elation to the extreme of boredom, apathy, distaste, or disillusionment with another member, she is apt to go off the deep end.
3. Ulterior motive for entering A.A. She was not honestly seeking to get well for herself and her life, but for some purpose. Once that goal is achieved, her sobriety and her enthusiasm for A.A. evaporate.
4. She never grasped the full program. She was one of those, perhaps, who found a miracle return of health in the 1st and 12th Steps, plus group therapy. But those who brought her in never sufficiently impressed upon her that there are 11 Steps that mean work on ourselves and only one that means work with others!

Then too, women, while drinking, frequently had the thrill--wholly false, but very convincing at the time--of feeling they were cute, amusing, bright and witty, or full of energy and power. They find sobriety crushingly bleak and their ego bleaker. Since comparatively few have come in at a very young age, most women find the reality of facing up to middle-age or advancing years just too gagging--particularly since they have wasted their capabilities, drinking away time and thought--and are so poorly equipped for maturity.

Rooted in Subconscious
Put this down to rampant vanity if you will but it goes deeper into the subconscious than that, for men too know vanity and dread of age. Add the feminine slow poisons of the Prince Charming dreams, the Cinderella-rags-to-riches, the glamour-girl era, the stay-young-at-least-look-young campaigns that, however disavowed by the thinking woman, are as much a part of her subconscious as air is a part of water. (With exceptions, as to any rule, of course.) With A.A. she faces reality. The reconversion of the biggest war factory is a no more involved job than that!

A. Newcomers (men, too, but particularly women), should be made thoroughly conscious that they are very sick people--far sicker than they fully realize, and that their outlook and viewpoint, their tastes and their judgments are neither what they once may have been--or will be after a tested and sustained period of sobriety. A woman coming into A.A. is usually highly emotional; she has lived through a period of that peculiar kind of abyssmal loneliness that only drinkers can know, and her gratitude and dependency on those who are kind and helpful are apt to be all out of bounds and mistranslated both by herself and others. All her reactions are apt to be intense (even those who reached the lethargic slow-thinking stage can form fixations) and she should guard against any strong attachments, male or female, until she has been sober long enough to have achieved some stability.

With men and women thrown together in varying degrees of recovery from a disease that is charged with emotional disturbance, the pitfalls are many. Any alcoholic has come through a long lonely time of it (generally self-inflicted, but lonely just the same), and affectionate reactions, the old, old rebound, the new return of life and zest, the happy experience of understanding, tolerance and sympathy, have been the cause of too many slips to do Alcoholics Anonymous any bit of good, and have doomed many an individual to total failure in permanent recovery. Newcomers, therefore, should be impressed that we are all sick people in some stage of recuperation.

B. A sense of humor seems to be the remedy here--plus the first active practice of a little humility.

C. This may be due to a specific cause of treachery--or from century old rivalry. For too many generations to count, a woman's only hope of whatever luxury, care, and comfort her world offered, was through favor in a man's eyes. Since success could not always be counted on through our own wiles, there developed a neat technique in cutting our sisters from under--good!

Certainly a change of heart--or a change of viewpoint--is necessary in a sound, healthy, happy mind. Women are a good half of the population, and it behooves us, however slowly, to learn to like, to understand and to help each other; and when we have learned that, to pass on the idea as early as possible to our daughters and female associates.

It's odd and it's wonderful, that many women have learned to like women for the first time in A.A. We have, to begin with, that magical bond of common suffering that joins us in the battle for recovery. It's a suffering that pretty much strips us of the subterfuges and dodges we've practiced so long. We should nurture this basic premise and cultivate loyalty to each other, whatever each other's faults. Nothing, perhaps, will be more salutary to the whole parcel of A.A. problems than a feeling which all A.A. women should seek to establish, sustain and cement--that we stand together. Not against anybody or anything, but most certainly together. And show ourselves and the world that we can, do, and like, to work together.

Women's Meetings

Women's groups are working out successfully in many cities, though fundamentally segregation is somewhat contrary to A.A. principles. Alcoholics are banded together in the fellowship of a basic malady and as a part of our healing we must help each other and like our fellow human being regardless of who or what he or she may be. For women to set themselves up as a special case is questionable to say the least --particularly when one of our chief weaknesses as alcoholics has been to stress the I'm-different-and-nobody-understands-me solitude of thought that leads to desolation. On these arguments, many A.A.s are against women's groups. But there are no rules and regulations in A.A., and a number of women's groups are doing remarkably well. Some women prefer them.

There are others who have managed to straddle this point by forming women's units that have weekly gatherings, meeting in private homes. They are not run as groups per se, but an hour's discussion is held on a previously selected allied topic or a point in the program, after which the main portion of the evening is given to informal talk over refreshments. Thus each woman comes to know a number of others well enough to feel a kinship, to go to meetings with, to phone without a sense of strangeness, and to do 12th Step work with. There can develop a fine feeling week by week of confidence and understanding that is often of great aid in averting a slip.

D. So does everybody, and too often the curb is neither stressed nor practiced. A lot of newcomers earnestly resolve to refrain from gossip --only to be disillusioned by others who gleefully broadcast confidences and embroider details. A "repeater" is something like a Typhoid Mary. Any A.A. who tells intimate secrets and blabs case histories is as false to her trust as a priest or a doctor who would publish a patient's confessional outpourings. Discretion is a valuable lesson to learn; loyalty and kindness are even more so. Nothing should be told unless for the immediate and express purpose of aiding that sick person. We should privately vow never to tell anything without the knowledge of the person who gave the original confidence. If we set the aim that high, our tongues will be pretty well bridled.

E. Those who are sincere in 12th Step work are not apt to approach it with the remotest sense of flirtation, Lord knows. But sex consciousness is not to be denied by those even a fraction more than eunuchs, and if we pray "Lead us not into temptation," it should follow that we do not lead ourselves into it. St. Paul's admonition that we "avoid the appearance of evil" can save much misunderstanding and many false conclusions.

Certainly a woman new to A.A. should be advised to tread lightly --and never singly --with male members. She should be encouraged to work with a man, or get help from a man member only when another A.A. is present, male or female.

This practice of having another A.A. along is a quickly acquired resolution with many women anyway. (Except of course on visits to hospitals or other public places where help or witnesses if needed can be easily summoned).
F. For every lady "tramp" who comes into a group there are several times her number in wolves and would-be wolves. Unencouraged she'll drift rapidly out --or buckle down and do a job. Who are we to judge? We should refrain from judgment and give everyone a full exposure to our ideals. But being open-minded and tolerant does not mean to condone anything verging on loose morals.

The rest of the difficulties stated in this article are due to the particular struggle women have in understanding and acquiring the two foundations of A.A. --humility and honesty. We are born with organs that involve suffering and sacrifice. We find that this inheritance evokes in our fellow man the highest and the lowest of instincts. Is it any wonder that our emotional values, supercharged alternately with fear and desire, are apt to be unstable? Add to that the traditional conditioning of centuries of chattel status --of servitude, of the menial. . .

Recently in the world's history women have emerged as individuals with rights. Few as yet have been fully aware that with rights and privileges go responsibilities and obligations. But when women irk you, keep remembering how very, very recently were they permitted an education, allowed even to sing in a choir, be accepted in a college, or be permitted to own and dispose in their own names.

Until yesterday then, a woman's only way to whatever standing she achieved was chiefly through enticement, cajolery, defiance, subterfuge, the weapon of the deadly tongue, and pandering to man's basest instincts. Honesty comes hard? Humility comes hard? It's small wonder.

On the other hand there are innumerable women of our day (many are in A.A.) whose honesty and innate perfectionism became so ruthless and so intolerant that it led them into drinking. They perhaps more than anyone else have to pick themselves up out of the deepest disillusionment. And they, far more than men, are the ones apt to be most impatient and critical of their slower sisters whose minds and moral standards have had no training for the new so-called freedom.

When we were in favor, in the past, when we pleased, we were praised and flattered and treated tenderly. We instinctively expect such treatment now for whatever we do. Of course our feelings get hurt easily; we are oversensitive--we are cruelly aware of our secret inferiority, and many of us are acutely conscious of our inadequacy to handle freedom.

So let's be patient and understanding, we women, of ourselves and of each other. And let men remember, when baffled, that women are working out of an inheritance of abject slavery.

The real problems aren't so different in the main from those of men. Men perhaps have other basic defects, some harder, others easier to recognize, admit, and discipline. Except that we can be dangerous to each other, thank the Lord who made it so. Let's not kid ourselves. And let's not make a point of it. But let us recognize it --honestly and humbly.

It's true that circumstances alter cases. But not much.

…........
Manhattan, New York “

(our edits and our emphases)

Comment: The above article is no more than a rather protracted (and self contradictory) rationalisation in support of the 'special and different' brigade. Simply substitute gay, straight, black, white, young, old, newcomers, oldtimers etc for “women” - together with a few stereotypical modifications added to further distinguish the category - and you have a ready made template for yet another so-called “special interest” group! Of course the author is quite correct in stating: “.....there are no rules and regulations in A.A ….” . However there is equally no rule or regulation which states that the remainder of AA has to accept their inclusion in group listings or participation in the service structure or indeed their right to refer to themselves as AA groups. The “they're only guidelines” defence cuts both ways! If such a group were to object to exclusion and claim that the traditions prohibits such action the argument may equally validly be made - well the traditions are 'only' guidelines! We don't HAVE to abide by them!

Cheerio

The Fellas (Friends of Alcoholics Anonymous)

PS We have to say that our very own “Ferret Fanciers in AA”(non-restrictive) recovery group is doing particularly well. But then we, of course, are the exception!

See also AA Minority Report 2013